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I don't understand Christianity.
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JET_ALONE
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Post#1  Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:38 am  Reply with quote + 
I've been putting this off for a long time, and I hope nobody takes this as being personally offensive, but I can't stand it any more. For so long now I've tolerated the whole "homosexuality is wrong" on religous grounds thing, thinking that I should just respect the beliefs of others and stuff. But no more. Why the hell should I have any respect whatsoever to a religon that hates me and others like me? Yes I'm gay, and I'm trying to make a point here.

Oh, and try not to lock this dear Mr / Mrs Moderator, because hopefully this will spark some very in depth discussion without any flaming. Not all Christians are bad, I know that. Because something like that doesn't make the person. It's the person themselves that matter, and as long as they are good and loving then it's not a probelm...Something certain people in society don't realise and that's what I'm going to talk about.

Do you know what it's like growing up knowing that there will always be people that hate you for who you are? Well try having an entire religeon, in this case Christianity, working against you to make sure you can never live a decent life. I'm just 16, but I already know what the rest of my life will basically be like, because I've seen it. Sure social attitudes have relaxed a bit, but that's all.

It's some kind of stupid trap. You can lie about yourself and who you are and live the rest of your life very very unhappy, or be true to yourself and be unhappy anyway because a lot of people hate you. But not always, because you can fight it. And that's what I'll do. I'm going to keep fighting for my rights and the rights of others until this world, or at least my world will be a better place to be.

But seriously. I was brought up Catholic and learned that God was loving and good and stuff, back when I was too young to know any better, but now all I've learnt is that God is an evil, merciless bloodthirsty tyrant who hates anyone who doesn't comply to those rules that I will never understand. Is this true? Because that's all I see. People can't change that easily, and in this case of homosexuality, they can't. I've tried and it doesn't get you anywhere. So why the hatred? I will never know.

So I'm going to prove to everybody that I can live a good, happy life without God, because I hate him with all my heart.

Discuss. Or lock if you must. I think I've made my point.
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Glair Bomber
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Post#2  Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:41 pm  Reply with quote + 
I'd have to say I couldn't agree with you more. I have been brought up as a Catholic my entire life. As a child, obviously you believe God to be the greatest, most loving, blah blah blah... but as you grow older, you realize he really just sounds like a bitch.

But y'know, my friend and I often had discussions such as this. What if God isn't that sort of person? What if the religion of Christianity just took it all too far? If we are truly all God's creations, and if he truly loves each and every one of us no matter what, why would Christians still turn away people such as homosexuals, lesbians, pagans, ect.? I believe God created all of us for who we are, and we all have our own purposes in this world. So why would he create someone he knows he'll just shun anyways?

As for myself, I can say that I am proud to be bisexual. Screw everyone who thinks it's wrong, including those high-strung Christians who think life is nothing except doing works of God. What the crap.

I'm a very laid-back Catholic. I rarely even bother to mention that I -am- Catholic. But hey, if someone like me is Catholic, and can still accept other people for who they are, why can't everyone else? I guess it's just not that easy.

Besides, shouldn't life be lived to the fullest? You only get one after all, so why would you spend all your time doing righteous things in the name of God? What did God put you on Earth to do? Why do you need to obsessively think of him if you're just going to die and spend the rest of eternity with him anyways?

Well, those are my thoughts on the subject. Whoo-hoo.
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Post#3  Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:37 pm  Reply with quote + 
I'm a Christian.

<rant>

To be honest my standpoint is "hate the sin, love the person", homosexuality is biblically a sin, but it doesn't mean we should hate the people, thats not a ministry at all. It is grace that saves you, not actions, the reason you try to live without sin is because of your love for God. The Bible is pretty clear on this topic too... "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", "don't try and remove the speck from your brothers eye untel you remove the plank from your own eye" (this is my paraphrase, i'll pull out direct quotes and refrences if you want later). Your problem doesn't seem to be with biblical christianity, it seems to be with leagalism. Leagalism isn't a problem with the religion or with God, but more a problem with more imperfect people. Jesus spent a good portion of his time dealing with a few groups of leagalistic Jews, they were called the Pharases.

</rant>
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Sora G. Silverwind
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Post#4  Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:11 pm  Reply with quote + 
The thing with the quotes about homosexuality from the Bible is that it's not quite as clear-cut as people seem to believe. The fundies like to apply 20-century meanings to something written millennia ago without understanding what the context was back then.

Disclaimer: I'm not Christian - I'm Hellenic pagagnostic (that is, I consider myself mainly agnostic, but am studying the ways and religion of the Greek gods). Ha. See y'all in the sixth circle of hell, biznatches. I've got lakeside property.

I don't believe the reason Sodom and Gomorrah fell was because of homosexuality - I believe it was because the people and Sodom and Gomorrah were inhospitable to their visitors (that is, Abraham and his two angels). If Yahweh were pissed off about the homosexuality, he would have said so. Unfortunately, the people back then wouldn't have had the concept of a loving homosexual relationship - they couldn't fathom that, so why would they need to address it? (Of course, then you get the story of David and Jonathan, and...yeah.)

The line about a man lying with a man as with a women from Leviticus is part of a series of laws tha also says that you can't wear mixed fabrics, eat shrimp, listen to women, work on Sundays, play football, or keep a garden, among other things. People, people, if you're going to quote one, you better dang well quote them all. And follow them, too.

This is also the same set of laws that in John 8:1-11 Jesus says that we as human beings do not need to enforce anymore, except the bit about offering no meat to idols. And, um, I'm not sure about this, but I think Jesus was pretty important in Christianity, right? So I think it would be pretty important to listen to him. {/sarcasm}

But we also know that Paul apparently had some things to say about homosexuality, particularly this line from 1st Corinthians 6:9-10: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." Which seems pretty clear-cut until you consider that 1) the NT was originally written in Greek, meaning 2) there was no word for homosexuality in ancient Greek. The phrase "abusers of themselves with mankind" was originally the word arsenokoites, which does not mean homosexual. Ancient Greece was a culture which believed that the most perfect form of sexual union was between two men (particularly an older men and a younger boy, if you're going by Plato). There was no such thing at that time as homosexuality and heterosexuality; there was just sex and no sex. See http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/119283.html for more details. Sexuality back then was not the same as sexuality now.

Then we've got the whole spiel in Romans by Paul, where the men who had rejected God "burned with lust" for one another or whatnot. But the only homosexuality he had ever experienced would have been in the context of pagan temple worship (yes, us ebbil pagans like to cause trouble in the world, hur hur). He most likely had never seen a homosexual relationship as we tend to think of it nowadays. For more thoughts on the passage in Romans as well as the other places where homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible, see http://www.reallivepreacher.com/node/633.

I really shouldn't be so concerned with what another religious book says about the lines of morality. Unfortunately, it's the so-called followers of this religious book that are attempting to worm their way into every aspect of life. I've only summarized what I've learned about the different possible meanings behind the passages that people like to quote as indicative of God hating on homosexuals - the debate rages on and on and on...
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Post#5  Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:41 pm  Reply with quote + 
A well researched and placed argument, this is impressive. Best part about it is i tend to agree on most points.
Sodom fell for their sin and their lack of richous people, and its not very spacific on what sin.
Leviticus is the old law, and now we are bound by the new law.
I already said we wern't supposed to judge.
I don't know greek yet, but i'll probably learn it sometime.
I need to research where in romans your talking about cause i don't have it memorized.

And, i'm really happy with that post, it gives me another reason to research my own personal beliefs, for some reason a lot of "christians" shun biblical research and debate, wonder why. And i highly encourage anyone to research religions, not only can it be interesting, but it also allows you to make arguments without assumptions, which is a good thing for not insulting people.

I'll be back after a bit more research, but first i have to weaken my inferweb security to lower my filtration settings (your reallivepreacher site has some "blocked words" in it, and yes i censor myself), cause last i checked lust was still a sin, of which i have been known to struggle with.

--edit--




Alright, after a bit of research in multiple versions, (though still not greek, give me a few years, us compy-sci majors have other stuff to do) I present a question then. Acording to Jesus's talk about marriage, it is only mentioned that a man and women can get married, it is nowhere mentioned that an intermixture of the two could be married. It is also stated in the bible that sex before marriage is wrong, and lust is also wrong. Therefore, wouldn't that raise a question to how homosexuality could actually be practiced at all abiding with these statements.

I'm sure you'll find some flaw in my reasoning though, as i'm not the worlds greatest debater. But for now i'm still left with my origonal beliefs on the issue.

1. Homosexuality is a sin (in practice, i don't see how sinning is avoidable)
2. Love the people Hate the sin
3. Don't try to be God/Do not Judge/ETC
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Post#6  Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:55 pm  Reply with quote + 
Wow. I'm happy now, and I've calmed down a bit. And I've always wondered about the legitemacy of the Bible and so on, especially Leviticus, and why nobody follows those rules yet are so bent on enforcing others. Thanks everyone.

See I knew Christianity wasn't a bad thing, because I know people can follow it and they're the nicest people like ever. It's just those extremists that ruin it for everyone. Yay.

...Wish I could put up such well-done posts like that.
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Post#7  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:09 am  Reply with quote + 
Jesus mentioned that "only" a man and woman get married? Do you mind citing your passage for this? The last I checked, Jesus couldn't give a flying pig's foot about sexuality - he was more concerned with helping the poor and not being a hypocrite.

I still stand by my assertion that people in those times would not have been able to fathom a relationship that was completely normal except for the fact that it happened to have been between two people of the same gender. If they knew of any homosexual relations, it would have most likely been in the context of pagan worship, as in the case of Paul. So of course they would automatically think it was wrong, because "LOOKIT THOSE EBBIL PAGANS DOING IT. THE PAGANS ARE DOING IT, THEREFORE IT'S NOT NORMAL." And, if it were a significant problem that would have concerned the people at that time, it would have been specifically, very explicitly mentioned.

Also...

Quote:
It is also stated in the bible that sex before marriage is wrong, and lust is also wrong. Therefore, wouldn't that raise a question to how homosexuality could actually be practiced at all abiding with these statements.

Sex before marriage is its own category apart from homosexuality. The two aren't inherently related, though since people are raising a brouhahaha over whether homosexual people should allowed to get married at all, apparently now it is (except it's still not). But two people can be in a homosexual relationship and still be celibate.

As for the lust thing, I tend to think of that as a case of "Nothing in excess" or "All things in moderation" (thank you, oracle at Delphi). But, yanno, make your own call. I've got no right to tell other people how to live their lives.
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Post#8  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:13 am  Reply with quote + 
I totally agree with you. I was raised a Christian myself, until I developed critical thinking skills. I have 2 personalities which I will have to let both of them speak on this topic.

Personaliity #1

More power to you! You are an individual that deserves to be whatever he wants to


Personality#2

I can see how homosexuality can be wrong. We somehow exist to mindlessley reproduce. Homosexuality deters from that basic reason for wxistance.
However, the earth is way too overpopulated. We need more homosexuals to keep the population down. Being gay helps the environment.

Meh, to me none of this matters anyway. The crazy insane paradox of reasi=oning in my head leads me to beleive that there is no such thing as existance. That's right. Nothing exists. Existance itself makes absolutely no sence whatsoever. Might as well make use of what we think is actually here and do whatever you want with it.

I'm crazy...
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Post#9  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:41 am  Reply with quote + 
My comments in bold.

Sora G. Silverwind wrote:
Jesus mentioned that "only" a man and woman get married? Do you mind citing your passage for this? The last I checked, Jesus couldn't give a flying pig's foot about sexuality - he was more concerned with helping the poor and not being a hypocrite.

What i said is that Jesus "only" mentioned a man and woman could get married, the inclusion of terms only seems to strengthen the other cases meanings. Matthew 19:1-6 Since you asked i'll give you links to it in several versions.

NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%2019:1-6&version=31
NLT http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%2019:1-6;&version=51;
KJV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%2019:1-6;&version=9;


I still stand by my assertion that people in those times would not have been able to fathom a relationship that was completely normal except for the fact that it happened to have been between two people of the same gender. If they knew of any homosexual relations, it would have most likely been in the context of pagan worship, as in the case of Paul. So of course they would automatically think it was wrong, because "LOOKIT THOSE EBBIL PAGANS DOING IT. THE PAGANS ARE DOING IT, THEREFORE IT'S NOT NORMAL." And, if it were a significant problem that would have concerned the people at that time, it would have been specifically, very explicitly mentioned.


Your probably right, culture has changed quite a bit, but the Bible has stayed up to date better then most books atleast.


Also...

Quote:
It is also stated in the bible that sex before marriage is wrong, and lust is also wrong. Therefore, wouldn't that raise a question to how homosexuality could actually be practiced at all abiding with these statements.

Sex before marriage is its own category apart from homosexuality. The two aren't inherently related, though since people are raising a brouhahaha over whether homosexual people should allowed to get married at all, apparently now it is (except it's still not). I really don't care weather or not, leagaly there are homosexual marriages, or civil unions, but forcing it upon the church annoys me, even weather or not it was a Christian marriage would still be debatable But two people can be in a homosexual relationship and still be celibate. All the power to them

As for the lust thing, I tend to think of that as a case of "Nothing in excess" or "All things in moderation" Well, i tend to take it as a serious always a sin senerio, mostly based on Matthew 5:28
NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:28;&version=31;
NLT http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:28;&version=51;
KJV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:28;&version=9;
(thank you, oracle at Delphi). But, yanno, make your own call. I've got no right to tell other people how to live their lives. Right back at ya, though that doesn't stop; me from discussing things and hoping people don't start going to God

Whee, that was fun ^^... Well, thats how i see things.
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Post#10  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:28 am  Reply with quote + 
Before we look at gay marriage / same sex marriage, first we have to remember what the Bible says about homosexuality. The Bible clearly and consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). God does not create a person with homosexual desires. A person becomes a homosexual because of sin (Romans 1:24-27), and ultimately because of his or her own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person choosing to sin by giving into their sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger / rage, does that make it right for them to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true for homosexuality.



We also have to remember that homosexuality is just as forgivable a sin as all other sins. God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God’s love and desire to save extends to homosexuals (John 3:16; Romans 5:8). God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17).



To give sanction to homosexual marriage would be to give approval to that lifestyle, which the Bible clearly and consistently condemns as sinful. I believe that Christians should stand firmly against the idea of gay marriage / same sex marriage. Marriage is ordained by God to be between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:21-24; Matthew 19:4-6). Homosexual marriage is a perversion of the institution of marriage and an offense to the God who created marriage. God forbids and condemns homosexuality, so He clearly is opposed to homosexual marriage. As Christians, we are to seek to share the love of God and salvation through Christ with homosexuals. We are to be loving and kind to homosexuals, while at the same time not condoning their sinful lifestyle.

---gotquestions.org


Hope, this help :happy: 
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Post#11  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:34 am  Reply with quote + 
The bible is a book to practice contradictions.

Period,
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Post#12  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:36 am  Reply with quote + 
Quote:
Matthew 19:1-6

I find it illogical to apply that line to homosexuality when the issue that's asked about is a man divorcing his wife. Okay, so Yahweh isn't down with having a man divorce his wife; I get that. But that is a very specific situation that doesn't include homosexuality as part of the issue, because it wasn't perceived as an issue, because the modern concept of homosexuality just didn't exist at that time. But even as this passage is specific, it's also very ambiguous. The Pharisees never mention what "reasons" their theoretical man would have for divorcing his wife, which may or may not include wanting to instead stay with a man as his partner. But since the reasons aren't included, it's unfair to assume what they are unless other passages state them. All in all, I only see this passage condemning divorce, and the only way it could be applied to homosexuality would be if you did some really painful Scripture-twisting.

Quote:
Your probably right, culture has changed quite a bit, but the Bible has stayed up to date better then most books atleast.

Hardly. If it stayed up to date, we'd have more books of Scripture added to that thing over the years as more issues came up that needed to be dealt with in the Judeo-Christian worldview - it'd be constantly expanding. As it is, the content of the Bible hasn't changed since it was first put together. Our understanding of it definitely has changed, but that's a given for anything that's extensively studied.

Quote:
I really don't care weather or not, leagaly there are homosexual marriages, or civil unions, but forcing it upon the church annoys me, even weather or not it was a Christian marriage would still be debatable

I don't care if the Christian churches disallow homosexual marriages either - that's their business and between them and their god. What I do care about is if those Christians start trying to force it on non-religious institutions - the civil marriages/unions/whatever the heck you want to call them.

Quote:
Matthew 5:28

Well, can't argue with that, then, although I'd hope you wouldn't take it just as it is and instead respectfully question it and its implications. I know one of my friends was struggling with that line concerning crushes on movie stars and video game/anime characters.

Also, something I found out from that same friend: apparently the official position of her church (United Church of Canada) on that Leviticus line is that the passage has to do with the fact that having sex with a man as with a woman would have been seen as reducing a man to the level of a woman. And since women were seen in those times as property, that would have been very demeaning for a man.
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Post#13  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:02 am  Reply with quote + 
Quote:
The bible is a book to practice contradictions.

Period,
...

Quote:
I find it illogical to apply that line to homosexuality when the issue that's asked about is a man divorcing his wife. Okay, so Yahweh isn't down with having a man divorce his wife; I get that. But that is a very specific situation that doesn't include homosexuality as part of the issue, because it wasn't perceived as an issue, because the modern concept of homosexuality just didn't exist at that time. But even as this passage is specific, it's also very ambiguous. The Pharisees never mention what "reasons" their theoretical man would have for divorcing his wife, which may or may not include wanting to instead stay with a man as his partner. But since the reasons aren't included, it's unfair to assume what they are unless other passages state them. All in all, I only see this passage condemning divorce, and the only way it could be applied to homosexuality would be if you did some really painful Scripture-twisting.


I think you win on this argument actually, i do lose a point for overgeneralizing. My argument was that the Bible ONLY mentions one type of marriage as a posibility, but that would also be explained by lack of facing the same cultural things.

Quote:
Hardly. If it stayed up to date, we'd have more books of Scripture added to that thing over the years as more issues came up that needed to be dealt with in the Judeo-Christian worldview - it'd be constantly expanding. As it is, the content of the Bible hasn't changed since it was first put together. Our understanding of it definitely has changed, but that's a given for anything that's extensively studied.

You probably win this one too, maybe its that humanity hasn't changed (or possibly degraded, who knows)

Quote:
Well, can't argue with that, then, although I'd hope you wouldn't take it just as it is and instead respectfully question it and its implications. I know one of my friends was struggling with that line concerning crushes on movie stars and video game/anime characters.

It all depends on where you draw the line on the word lust then. Also depends on what you concider a crush as. It all comes pretty close to the lines of, what do you want from the person, if its sexual, then its lust.




So looks like I lost this round, brings up the question of weather you are this well studied only in issues like this or this issue, cause if thats the case atleast i can say that this is one of the topics of the bible i don't ordinarily look into as it doesn't have much relevence to my own life. Ah well, just another thing to debate with the people i know who are ahead of me in their walk. I still tend to think the romans topic covers all homosexuality, atleast in the since where it uses the word "unnatural".

Honestly, I tend to agree with most points of what your saying, we should let God do the judging instead of us, and accept these people into our churches, like i said before, its grace that saves you, not actions. There is a time when you need to confront other Christians about things you see in their life, but on shadily covered issues its best to let God convict, we do have the Spirit for a reason. On one last note, Romans 14:13-18 NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014:13-18;&version=31;
This is a pretty good example of why you should not be a Christian turned homosexual if all else fails, because weaker (or oddly enough more likely atleast in the worlds view) Christians will fall away. I guess if you come into Christianity as a homosexual, best thing to do is stay with your commitments tell God convicts you otherwize.

Anyway, you can probably tell that my minds kindof turning to mush right now, cause, well, its 4am right now. I really wish I could've been more of a help though, my Biblical knowledge isn't that increadable, but it is steadaly improving along with my relationship with God. I actually really enjoyed this, for some reason its rare for me to find an intellegent debate reguarding Christianity outside the church, of which the church tends to have problems in playing devels advacate (parden the serious pun). Its also kindof nice that this old forum had a good number of fairly large posts in what was only a small number of hours.
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Post#14  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:57 am  Reply with quote + 
Is this your personal opinion? Because...

Quote:
A person becomes a homosexual because of sin (Romans 1:24-27), and ultimately because of his or her own choice.

I didn't say to my myself one morning "I'm already a horribly worried 12 year old child concerned about my popularity at school, so I think I'll be gay". First I cried myself to sleep allot and lied to myself for a few years, hiding the truth about myself by speaking ill of homosexuals like the idiotic hypocrite I once was. Science shows that it's probably an uncrontrollable hormone balance / somethingorother that causes it at a young age.

Quote:
That does not excuse the person choosing to sin by giving into their sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger / rage, does that make it right for them to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true for homosexuality.

Dont you dare compare a sexual preference to something that heartless.

Quote:
We also have to remember that homosexuality is just as forgivable a sin as all other sins. God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God’s love and desire to save extends to homosexuals (John 3:16; Romans 5:. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17).

I will never ask God for my forgiveness of my sexuality as it is something I have no control of. I'd rather burn in hell for all eternity knowing I was right and God was wrong.

Quote:
To give sanction to homosexual marriage would be to give approval to that lifestyle, which the Bible clearly and consistently condemns as sinful. I believe that Christians should stand firmly against the idea of gay marriage / same sex marriage. Marriage is ordained by God to be between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:21-24; Matthew 19:4-6). Homosexual marriage is a perversion of the institution of marriage and an offense to the God who created marriage. God forbids and condemns homosexuality, so He clearly is opposed to homosexual marriage. As Christians, we are to seek to share the love of God and salvation through Christ with homosexuals. We are to be loving and kind to homosexuals, while at the same time not condoning their sinful lifestyle.

Don't worry. Why would I get involved in a religeon that hates me that way? As far as I'm concerned Christianity doesn't deserve universal love at this point. Civil Unions = Great idea.

Hope that helped. :happy: 
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Post#15  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:25 am  Reply with quote + 
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The bible is a book to practice contradictions.

Period,

No, it is God's word to us. Timothy 3:16 states that the Bible is "God-breathed." In other words, it is God's Word to us.

Quote:
Dont you dare compare a sexual preference to something that heartless.

homosexuality is same as "liar", liar same as murderer and murderer is same thing as steal.

point is, they just sin (not sinful). Even it is sinful is still can be forgiven.

Quote:
I will never ask God for my forgiveness of my sexuality as it is something I have no control of. I'd rather burn in hell for all eternity knowing I was right and God was wrong.

You don't understand, Asking God won't work. You need accept Lord Jesus to be your saver. Also You don't need to ask forgiveness, once Lord Jesus become your saver.

Still don't understand? Because since most of you are humanism (Like Secular Humanism, Agnostic, Atheist and other) or be study by humanism religion"

A "Strong" Christian had big-difference world-view from humanism teach. So you will hardly understand at all.

Also join Christianity doesn't mean given you "happy life". I know MANY Christain had horror life, even everyday of thier life.

I didn't join Christian for "happy life", I join because I love my Lord, He love me, all of you and even humanism people.

and "burn in hell thing" is just made-up by weak Christian or whatever it is.
Also Hell mean grave yard.
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Sora G. Silverwind
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Post#16  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:07 pm  Reply with quote + 
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Anyway, you can probably tell that my minds kindof turning to mush right now, cause, well, its 4am right now. I really wish I could've been more of a help though, my Biblical knowledge isn't that increadable, but it is steadaly improving along with my relationship with God.

I'm no Biblical scholar either, just someone with too much time on her hands. ;P

Quote:
I actually really enjoyed this, for some reason its rare for me to find an intellegent debate reguarding Christianity outside the church, of which the church tends to have problems in playing devels advacate (parden the serious pun). Its also kindof nice that this old forum had a good number of fairly large posts in what was only a small number of hours.

I'm not as well-informed about other issues like capital punishment and abortion and what have you, because I can see how it goes both ways in my own mind. While I can see how homosexuality can go both ways, that only applies in the sense that I understand where the other side is coming from. Personally, the whole debate touches a nerve for me both logically and personally. All in all, though, I think it really comes down to two things:

1. Judge not lest ye be judged yourself.
2. It's between the people in question and the god they follow.

Which I think you probably agree with.

And for the sake of my sanity, I'm going to cease my involvement in this debate right here and now. I see this whole fight in way too many other places. BombermanBoard is supposed to be the place where I can be stupid and immature and let my brain turn into ice cream. :veryhappy:  :veryhappy:  :veryhappy: 
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Post#17  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:28 pm  Reply with quote + 
Sora G. Silverwind wrote:
And for the sake of my sanity, I'm going to cease my involvement in this debate right here and now. I see this whole fight in way too many other places. BombermanBoard is supposed to be the place where I can be stupid and immature and let my brain turn into ice cream. :veryhappy:  :veryhappy:  :veryhappy: 

This debate is going nowhere fast anyway, i guess i somehow miss out on the whole debate, cause in other places, i just ignore it (mostly after it gets heated) , and mmm, ice cream.
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Soniti 254
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Post#18  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:47 pm  Reply with quote + 
"It's not what someone is that makes them a person, it's what they do that makes them a person."

I believe that praise wraps up my view on this.
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Post#19  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:35 pm  Reply with quote + 
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homosexuality is same as "liar", liar same as murderer and murderer is same thing as steal.

What does lying have to do with homosexuality.

Quote:
You don't understand, Asking God won't work. You need accept Lord Jesus to be your saver. Also You don't need to ask forgiveness, once Lord Jesus become your saver.

Never.

Quote:
You don't understand, Asking God won't work. You need accept Lord Jesus to be your saver. Also You don't need to ask forgiveness, once Lord Jesus become your saver.

Why does he totally change his tone between the old and new testemants?
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Post#20  Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:18 pm  Reply with quote + 
Alright, this is my last post in the topic, and i kindof hope this topic ends before more direct attacks are thrown, (i guess unless someone spacifically asks/tells me something, cause i probably would respond to that), one sure way that will turn off anyone from Christianity or homosexuality or whatever is direct attacks. Many people were hurt by the church, which in current instances tends to be Christianity's worst enemy. Lets start off with Christianity's basics, for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. No man is good enough to be with God, no matter how good of a person they are, their political background, or their family history, but God loved the people in the world and sent His son to die so that the people could live. Christianity is not about living the perfect life as much as it is about trying to serve God in thanksgiving. It is not about condemnation but salvation. We are not supposed to force morality, because morality saves no one, we are supposed to share the love of God. The only reason you can be saved is because of the grace and love of God. And you have it all wrong, no true Christian should hate you, especially not for the things you do. A strong follower of Christ should accept you, love you like a brother, and be a witness to you threw their actions, sadly, most Christians are fairly weak, including myself.

--edit-- removed some stuff, that i decited i don't actually care about, YAY
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