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How is everybody doing?
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DragonBomber
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Post#61  Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:23 pm  Reply with quote + 
I shall not try and quote anyone here, too many instances I'd have to keep track of. Happy belated birthday to the other birthday mentioned after Matty, that I cannot see due to it not being on the backscroll at the bottom. This has turned into quite a Sociological-Psychological debate. Very interesting. Several of you here would have been joys to have in my classes while getting my BA in Sociology, and the notion of what love is, let alone what we are, would have stoked a lot of good debates in many classes I had, including the ones where we went over theories on how people come together, why they spark love, and so forth.

I can understand many of your perspectives, though I am leery of making any generalizations in either direction. Human nature as a rule, is the biggest generalization that people whip out, and it's simply an abstract that we want to believe in so as to put things neatly into a box. The reality is much different. The diverging personalities, situations, ideologies, and behavior of us, merely animals with more supposed understanding of our condition, is so varied even within a person in a short span of their lives, that even that one individual looking back at themselves later or before hand might be staring into an alien abyss.

I cannot speak for others, nor do I expect them to abide by my internalized set of mores, morals, and supposed beliefs. Even I change my mind on them as I go, though many remain semi constant and fixed like stars. I have always felt worthless, due to my childhood, due to my lowly place in society's underrungs. Instead of declaring war completely, I simply altered my idea of what my purpose was, and somehow along the way obtained a Christ/Superhero complex. Part of me is only happy when I am giving to others somehow, sometimes saving their day, even to the point of it damaging me or giving me nothing left for myself. Partly that is an expression of self hate, partly a desire to see myself making a contribution. It's a very slippery sharp blade. My religious beliefs are a hodge podge of faiths, my interests are everywhere, but it works to get me by day by day.

As per my wife, there is a lot more to the story of us, but it's not my place to bring that here. She loves me, not unconditionally, though early on it was clear that certain parts of the possible me that could be a person the world sees and experiences, even if it was a part that she helped create and invested in seeing bloom in me, could not ever live. She is faithful and tries her best not to unleash her anger at other things onto me. She is sweet, though she is wrathful. She is beautiful, but she can be ugly. She is like many goddesses of ancient religions, in being everything and nothing that you want all at the same time. Dual sided coin able to shuck you down the Euphrates when she is done with you.  Laughing

I feel guys can be the same way naturally. They can do the same things, only I have only ever been in relationships with women so can only claim to know anything about that side, customize my message from that perspective and all that. I know what is inside me and what I could choose to do, were I so inclined. I could be a "bad" person, or a wrathful person, or a hateful person. I just don't really get much out of exuding those emotions on a daily basis so I am what I am now.  Wink

Some people have looked at my marriage and told me to leave it, to walk away. Financial issues, past issues they could not have gotten through themselves, occasional battles with certain devils of behavior, traits they find unacceptable. I nearly did once, but found myself still in love with her, despite being in love with another woman as well, who in turn was truly corrupt and had put us against one another for her own delight. Complicated lives for complicated people. All of life can be complicated depending on the lens one affixed upon it, how deeply you choose to dissect the day to day, the week to week, the year to year.

While I am a well of rage according to my avatar image (I was once a very angry person but have cut people from my life to reconcile their decisions and wrongs they don't care to try and right, and found meditation, and fasting cleansing), I am also a well of hope. I do my best to hang on for the ride, hoping my life will work out in some areas despite me having no control over those areas. I wait and watch, and listen, and if it happens, it does. If it does not, I remodel my behavior and re attune myself as required to stay above the waves.

It keeps me going, and generally I am a happy person, though debts and worries grind me down the same as anyone else. My only true fear is debt, so right now, I am not too ecstatic to be enduring the nightmare log ride though I still clock in every day and do my best.  X Eyes My health took a turn for the worse due to extreme allergies, and right now I am enduring that wonderful trip of shots, pills, and pain, hoping my organs, joints, and so forth do not take undue damage in the process (a risk given the nature of my problem). My wife has stayed there and was the only one really concerned with me getting better, or in fact, making sure we knew what was wrong. No one else really was there or cared to push me to see the doctors. I don't know anyone else that would take care of me were it to become entirely and irreparably worse, despite me more than happy to help others were I able to.

Take that ramble for what it's worth I guess. It could be worse, it could be better. But overall it's not too bad. I have a lot of roads left to travel. It will be better when certain things are behind us as successful trips taken and not roundabout traffic turns still engaging, and worse when new drama or traumas hit us. Your experiences may vary, your opinions are bound to be different, and that is the positive of being what we are. We can be different, think different, act different, and within reason our societies accept it. The behaviors they don't accept, they eventually grow weak to when pushed enough, or they continue to oppose with more vigor. We are beasts of society as much as we are our own solitary monsters in a maze.

Thanks for the interesting read.  Very Happy
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Post#62  Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:39 pm  Reply with quote + 
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Post#63  Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:51 pm  Reply with quote + 
I am sane enough given the false positive of insanity I give off.

Thank you for the well wishes. They tell me in 2 years of shots I should be better, if it's the allergies really causing all the problems. So long as they don't jam another needle into my sternum (checking my bone marrow for cancer) then I will be peachy keen.
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Post#64  Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:04 pm  Reply with quote + 
2 years.... well, whatever it takes. I'm sure things will work out. People care about you, even when you feel like most of them don't, there's usually someone who just isn't showing it well enough.  Happy
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Post#65  Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:28 pm  Reply with quote + 
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Oh really, Leibniz? You think everything is as it should be?

Sort of, but I suspect that we are using different definitions of "natural". I had forgotten that so many existed: 15 at m-w.com.

From m-w.com: "based on an inherent sense of right and wrong <natural justice> " That is probably what you meant.

I meant the following:

"8 a: occurring in conformity with the ordinary course of nature : not marvelous or supernatural <natural causes>"

"12 a: having a physical or real existence as contrasted with one that is spiritual, intellectual, or fictitious"

"2 a: being in accordance with or determined by nature b: having or constituting a classification based on features existing in nature"

"7: having a specified character by nature <a natural athlete>"

"5: implanted or being as if implanted by nature : seemingly inborn <a natural talent for art>"

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You're fooling yourself if you think humanity is like an ant colony. An ant colony is full of identical workers, working for the common good. We are so very divided, working mostly for ourselves.
Have you studied microeconomics? If not, you should definitely read an introductory book. Essentially, apparently selfish behavior is most often actually beneficial for the whole.

Quote:
Ah, but for the most part, these "instincts" come about because of outside forces, not because people were born with them. Fears, for example. Infants have only the fear of falling and the fear of loud noises. Yet so many adults have arachnophobia, the fear of spiders. They are not naturally afraid of spiders. Something caused them to be afraid of them. Men and women are basically only different physically, even sexuality strays as we can see with homosexuals.
You see the differences rather than the great similarities. All fear is an iteration of the instinct to protect oneself. All sexuality is an iteration of the instinct to reproduce.

Your claim that men and women differ only physically is contrary to science:
http://www.cerebromente.org.br.....omens.html
http://www.sfu.ca/~dkimura/articles/sex.htm

Quote:
You make a bold statement there. You think you understand reality better than I do? Honestly? I've spent the better part of a year discovering reality. You don't know what I've gone through. You don't know what I've learned. And you think I'm in love with some hope or thought? Why do you think that? I am in love with individuals, not some big idea of what we are. If anything, it is you who is in love with an idea.

A year is a very short period of time.

I say that you love a hope because you find most relationships unsatisfactory rather than appreciating their beauty - the beauty of that which is, rather than the beauty of that which you would like to be.

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Well, I guess we ought to just rob, rape, and murder everyone else for our own gain, or better yet why don't we steal from ourselves, rape ourselves, and then murder ourselves because, after all, there are a lot of suicides these days, and suicide should be as natural as everything else, even though self-preservation is supposedly a human instinct, which is also natural.
Have you yet to discover the beauty of pain and suffering? Have you experienced how the contrast of pain and pleasure give meaning to both? Do you see how empty a life devoid of pain, setbacks, suffering, and challenges would be?

Yes, suicide and rape are natural. Everything is natural. One must be content with the present and past; we cannot change these. Work toward making the future as close to the future which we instinctually desire, but realize that our instinctual desire exceeds our capacity for change. Do your best to limit your conscious desire to the attainable, and then do your best to attain these things.
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Post#66  Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:03 pm  Reply with quote + 
It's true that the whole point of any sexual stuff is all about re-production, even human scents that help attracts certain types of other people relates to how well they're compatible for having children.

Really you have one life in this world and you can discriminate, be racist and whatever really. Each person is very different, while it may be hard for one person to change- another person can do so instantly. While one person may be interested in being in a relationship and likes other people, someone else may not be interested in a relationship and could dislike other people. Will power and mental strength along with proper knowledge, experience, having experienced losses and suffering at points in life and etc all help us to gain more control and continually mature more and become more wise.

As for accepting someone including their bad sides, that's your own choice to do so because you cared for the person. If you can stand the rest of the people in this world as well then that's fine for you, but everyone is different and there's a lot of filth in this world- which many people won't come to accept. There's no reason that you should accept the rest of the world just because you can accept one person, those are 2 completely different scales. Many people put up acts like they're good people, when they're actually out having affairs or cheating- or killing or whatever it is that they do. Well it's their own life and we exist to exist in this world, so who's to tell us what we can and can't do if we can get away with it- who's to tell us what's right or wrong.

The past is exactly that, the past and it only becomes more so over time. We don't have to accept things from the past as we're continually moving forward in time, and our moving forward can be treating something as if it never happened- while facing the present and future reality that we live in. What it comes down to is that we have our life to live on this earth, and we'll do so accordingly to how we want to with our own thoughts, beliefs and ways of doing things.
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Post#67  Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:01 pm  Reply with quote + 
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Post#68  Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:10 am  Reply with quote + 
Razon wrote:
The past is exactly that, the past and it only becomes more so over time. We don't have to accept things from the past as we're continually moving forward in time, and our moving forward can be treating something as if it never happened- while facing the present and future reality that we live in.

True.

When I say "one must" I do not mean it 100% literally. I might say that a man whose course is blocked by a tree must walk around it. What I really mean is that any other course of action is futile. He could push on the tree until he died, he could give up, or he could try to bypass the tree by climbing over it. So what? I think it fair to say that he must walk around the tree with the implication that otherwise his behavior is foolish.

Dark Zaphe wrote:
That's not the point, the point is that we do not have a hive mind.

The ants do not have a hive mind either; they do not realize what they are doing; they just do it; just as we do. Sure, humans have a self awareness, but ultimately this is not an isolated factor. Self awareness and a logical mind are lost without preferences. And all preferences are ultimately founded upon our natural instincts. Otherwise, why would we say that anything is bad or good?

Quote:
Everything is not natural.
Then what is it? Again, we clearly define natural differently. I define natural as that which exists. So anything unnatural or supernatural by definition does not exist.

Nature is matter and energy. A rock is natural. A landslide killing a bunch of little kids is natural.

Quote:
There are insignificant differences in the brain that can be overridden.
These differences are no different than the physical differences. Some women are taller, more athletic, etc. Some men have larger breasts than some women. Many women can override the trend of lesser strength through strenuous exercise, nutrition, etc. Some women are unable to give birth. Some men are unable to fertilize a woman.

Who cares? When comparing groups, these exceptions do not make the trends which differentiate the groups less meaningful. Women are women. Men are men. Variation exists.

Anyone who has studied neuroscience knows that hormones are significant.

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What does time have to do with anything?
I only mentioned it because you had already brought it up.

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And how are meaningless relationships beautiful at all?
I am not the one calling them meaningless. I am saying that they are meaningful - they just are not what you consider ideal.

Quote:

What is truly beautiful in connection with pain or suffering?

So you do not see it.

One must first overcome one's fear and distaste for these things in order to see the beauty. Read this: http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html . It will help you to understand many things. And it was written by a successful roman emperor.
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Post#69  Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:41 am  Reply with quote + 
BOMBTARDED wrote:
When I say "one must" I do not mean it 100% literally. I might say that a man whose course is blocked by a tree must walk around it. What I really mean is that any other course of action is futile. He could push on the tree until he died, he could give up, or he could try to bypass the tree by climbing over it. So what? I think it fair to say that he must walk around the tree with the implication that otherwise his behavior is foolish.

Maybe this is unimportant, but you seem to forget that he could chop down the tree and walk atop its stump. Then he could use the rest of the tree later on in his journey for some other purpose, perhaps to cross a river or a gap or such.

BOMBTARDED wrote:
The ants do not have a hive mind either; they do not realize what they are doing; they just do it; just as we do.

Ants are superorganisms, they work together for the colony to survive, and they have trouble living on their own. A man does not always follow a master, humans can survive on their own and isolate themselves, live out in the woods or somewhere uninhabited by other humans, and not contribute anything but carbon dioxide.

BOMBTARDED wrote:
Then what is it? Again, we clearly define natural differently. I define natural as that which exists. So anything unnatural or supernatural by definition does not exist.

That which is natural is not all that exists. This is the point I'm trying to make. Sure, a rock is natural, a landslide is natural. Metal is natural, but when natural products are worked with and combined to form, say, a computer, that is not natural. You won't find computers growing out in the wild. If events had happened differently in the past, we wouldn't be having our conversation here, because we may not have computers, we could have something totally different. If everything is natural, then nothing is artificial.

There are natural objects, and natural beings, and a natural order. It is illogical to declare that all is natural because in doing so, you contradict yourself, as thoughts, ideas, and beliefs contradict each other. There is only one way that humanity got to be here, whatever you want to believe, but there is only one way. There are not both humans that evolved somehow and humans who were placed here by a higher being. One or the other, or a higher being who started life and caused it to evolve. But not all three. And there are more theories, they go on and on, but they can't all be true. There are parts of things that may be true, but when two beliefs contradict each other, one is false and one is true. It is natural for us to contemplate these things, but the ideas we come up with are not always natural because most of them exist only as thoughts, not as a reality.

BOMBTARDED wrote:
Who cares? When comparing groups, these exceptions do not make the trends which differentiate the groups less meaningful. Women are women. Men are men. Variation exists.

Yes, variation exists, so not all women are "women" by society's definition, and not all men are "men." There are women who are more manly, and men who are more feminine. And there are people who don't behave as psychologists or society expect them to. We can't just classify people, they're all unique in some way.

BOMBTARDED wrote:
Dark Zaphe wrote:
What does time have to do with anything?
I only mentioned it because you had already brought it up.

I suppose I did bring it up, but in proportion to me a year is a very long time, especially this one, as the rest of my life pales in comparison to this single year. I shouldn't have really brought it up, because I don't intend to relate my whole story, at least not now.

BOMBTARDED wrote:
I am not the one calling them meaningless. I am saying that they are meaningful - they just are not what you consider ideal.

When a relationship that is intended to be built around love has no love involved, it becomes meaningless, just as, say, a game of Bomberman becomes meaningless if there is no way to set any bombs and you just have to wait in the corner for the time to run out.

BOMBTARDED wrote:
One must first overcome one's fear and distaste for these things in order to see the beauty.

Oh, I don't have a fear of that. I don't have a distaste. I love the Holocaust. It was a beautiful thing, and, in my opinion, quite humorous. All those Jews, the other imperfect people, all of them getting slaughtered, MAN, I wish I could have been there to see it. Hey, I wish I had got the chance to shove them in the gas chambers. No, no, even better, if I could have been there to help invent those gas chambers.

BOMBTARDED wrote:

I may read that, if I get a chance.

BOMBTARDED wrote:
And it was written by a successful roman emperor.

Success varies in the eye of the beholder.
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Post#70  Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:05 pm  Reply with quote + 
This video, My Darling? by Levni Yilmaz made me think of BOMBTARDED's comment of how he'd like a wife who baked him birthday cakes.  Peace Wink
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Post#71  Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:05 pm  Reply with quote + 
Dark Zaphe wrote:
Maybe this is unimportant, but you seem to forget that he could chop down the tree and walk atop its stump. Then he could use the rest of the tree later on in his journey for some other purpose, perhaps to cross a river or a gap or such.
Yes, you seem to be easily distracted by the unimportant.

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Sure, a rock is natural, a landslide is natural. Metal is natural, but when natural products are worked with and combined to form, say, a computer, that is not natural. You won't find computers growing out in the wild.
A beaver dam is natural. So too are the things we build. My computer desk is just as wild as the beaver dam or the ant hill. Everything is matter and energy behaving physically.

Quote:
Oh, I don't have a fear of that. I don't have a distaste. I love the Holocaust. It was a beautiful thing, and, in my opinion, quite humorous. All those Jews, the other imperfect people, all of them getting slaughtered, MAN, I wish I could have been there to see it. Hey, I wish I had got the chance to shove them in the gas chambers. No, no, even better, if I could have been there to help invent those gas chambers.
How about a hurricane? Even the unenlightened can usually see the beauty of that destructive force of nature.

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Success varies in the eye of the beholder.
Can we not agree that the man who is successful by his own standards is more successful than the man who is a failure by his own standards?

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When a relationship that is intended to be built around love has no love involved, it becomes meaningless, just as, say
Intentions are less relevant than you suggest. Again, like the ants. The ant does not intend to work for the colony, but this makes the colony no less beautiful. And the ant is no less beautiful.

You apparently see man as more distant from nature than I. To me, man is but another animal. Our creations are no different than the creations of other animals. Our cruelness is no more wrong the the cruelness of other animals.

Many find it difficult to view man objectively. Many men see the beauty of a horse but fail to asexually see the beauty of another man.

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I may read that, if I get a chance.
I find it very motivational. He points out childish behavior and helps one to behave as a man.
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Post#72  Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:03 pm  Reply with quote + 
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Post#73  Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:20 pm  Reply with quote + 
Yeah, most of Lev's videos, the Tales of Mere Existence series are kind of depressing. He has a channel on youtube if you want to check out more. I'd recommend it if you liked that video~  Peace Wink
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Post#74  Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:03 pm  Reply with quote + 
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Is the world all black and white to you?
No, with that metaphor, I would say that everything is white.

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Ambiguity is everywhere.
No, ambiguity exists only in the minds of those who desire ambiguity. Just as simplicity and clarity exist only in the minds of those who seek clarity.

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The classical physicists thought that they had things figured out
This is incorrect.
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Does the word artificial mean anything to you? Honestly? And how can you fail to recognize that we have a much higher mental capacity than animals? Is nothing creative to you?
I do not believe in a free will. Our minds are like computers, which do as they are programmed, and the programming is 100% genetic and environmental. Our self programming is just a reflection of these prior two; the genetics and environment determine how we program ourselves.
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Unfortunately, that's not like BOMB at all, though.
I am guilty of spending more time day dreaming about women than talking to them.
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From what little I know of you, you seem way too wrapped up in yourself and how better you are than people who don't agree with you.
To the contrary, I have said that I find beauty in every man and every action. I have not called anyone or anything meaningless.

Quote:
And the ant -does- work for the colony, because it chooses to. Why else would ants bring food back to the queen, and take care of the queen's eggs, and do all the other tasks an ant does for its colony?
As I said, I do not believe in free will, but this is much clearer at the level of ants. Ants have small brains. They are not self aware. The cooperation of the ants is like the cooperation of the molecules in a hurricane. And our own cooperation is no different.

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We do not have the instinct to design and manufacture computers.
But we do have the instinct to continually invent and manufacture new things. And we have the instinct to continually increase and pass on knowledge from generation to generation.
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Post#75  Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:01 pm  Reply with quote + 
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Post#76  Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:16 am  Reply with quote + 
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You must be absolutely insane if you believe that. How we turn out has little to do with genetics. I am nothing like my parents, nor my grandparents, and if I delved further back I'm sure I'd run into more differences. I am slightly more like my brother, but he doesn't seem to share quite the same beliefs that I do. Also, no one and nothing absolutely forces you to make a decision, whether on what to do or what to believe. Choices are provided, and you must choose. And you have the free will to choose. People are not as clear cut and dry as you suppose them to be.
I did not say only genetics. I said genetics plus environment. Say you create a robot with artificial intelligence and then let him go to discover things and make decisions based on his initial programing. This is equivalent to a newborn. Yet every decision made is ultimately a product of the initial conditions and programming. As a baby, you had no will in your environment or in your genetics. And then the combination of your genetics and the environment shape you into the person you become. The decisions you make today are based on your current thoughts and environment, which are based on your early thoughts and environment, which based on your earlier thoughts and environment... all the way back to your first thought and environment: of which you had not control.

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It is most certainly correct,
Show me a quote by any famous physicist claiming to have figured everything out with 100% certainty. The strongest claims I ever see are something along the lines of "this is the best model we have at the time."


Quote:

But based on your views you are likely not guilty of wishing for a woman to love you for who you are and not for the simple fact that you are a male human being.
Agreed. If she loves me for being a male human being, then she does love who I am. I am a specific male human being.

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Yet you still ignore me when I bring up points that you apparantly can't attempt to counter, let alone admit that they make sense. And you were rather rude when you said that I am distracted by the unimportant, while the point I made about the man and the tree was rather important if you stopped to think about it, and other points that you skipped over were also important. I don't think you really know what -is- important.
Forgive any rudeness, it was not the intention, and you claim to care about intentions.

As for the tree, the complication was unimportant because it was never intended to be a literal issue. We are not arguing about what to do when we encounter a tree. It was a metaphor. It was not about going around the tree, but rather about rejecting the futile options. Adding additional valid options makes the futile options no less futile. My attempt was to keep it simple by creating a situation with only one reasonable continuation. Maybe he did not have an axe or saw? Who cares, that was not the point. Again, the point was that it is foolish to choose one of the futile options when a practical one exists. Perhaps rather than objecting to my metaphor you intended to expand my metaphor in some other direction, but if so I misinterpreted you.

Your objections make sense, they simply are usually of minimal relevance to the point which I am trying to make. I do not even remember why we are talking about know it all physicists anymore. All I remember is that has something indirectly related to love.I do not think we are getting anywhere. Perhaps we should agree to disagree.
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Post#77  Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:10 pm  Reply with quote + 
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Post#78  Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:56 pm  Reply with quote + 
If this was the thread that we mentioned my birthday cake for the 17th, albeit early on the 4th, check out the Bomberman Artwork thread I made with the photos of it. It fits better there than here, as I had to make artwork for the cake to begin with, and the baker frosted some artwork out on the cake. If this is not the thread I read of cake replies to what I had said earlier, I apologize. It was a crazy weekend.
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