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From Topic: Suiciding/Kamikazing in bomberman
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Ven
Bomberdude

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Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 170
Post#17  Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:51 pm  Reply with quote + 
fireball87 wrote:
Ven wrote:
You also have to take a look at the levels (even the good sniping ones) and there's usually no unfair position on the map someone would be able to get that would make others say "sniping is not fair". It's all even out.

Strange that you say that, seeing as the playing field in bomberman is completely flat.

Strange you'd say that considering I was talking about the playing fields in FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS and not Bomberman....

fireball87 wrote:
Indeed, this is in fact quite the valid comparison. Problem is suiciding in FPS's isn't an invalid tactic either. Even with the point loss it doesn't make it an invalid tactic, less useful yes, but invalid no. Actually on a side note, In a majority of the FPS's I've played (and I can't say anything about blast, never played it). The points are deducted for causing yourself to die. Then points are again added for the kill you made. This is why in many games if your death is certain tossing a grenade out is common play, and will not lose you points. This is even implemented in game by COD4s Martyrdom perk. (which itself is often called noobish and unskillful, but its very much still part of the game). It does beg the question though in blast are points deducted for suicide killing or for suicide. If the point deduction is for killing yourself it in no way proves that it was implemented to prevent suicide kills, just to prevent stupid play and possibly slightly weaken suicide kills. Even if it IS implemented only on suicide kills, you're going to have a hard time telling me that bomberman blast isn't a different game then super bomberman 3, and even then you're going to have a hard time telling me that a point punishment is enough to make me dismiss the strategy as a valid one in certain situations, playing a game is all about weighing your options and taking the best one. And suicide in some cases MAY be your best option. (let me give you a hypothetical situation, you are playing a timed game and and your team is winning. The timer is almost up but you are in a position where you can assure your team wins by suicide. Do you let the timer run out and start a full new round negating your man advantage. If your goals are to you know, win the game, you should, because that will give you the round win AND net you gained points for the round which would otherwise count for nothing.)

True suiciding in a FPS, eg; walking into a room with a rocket launcher and blowing everything up including yourself, has no point since you're not gaining any points. Not to mention it extends your respawn time by a great deal (if in a respawn mode). Martyrdom in COD4 is different than cooking a grenade (or using a rocket launcher) and blowing everything up. Martyrdom doesn't reduce from your score. Secondly, at the highest level in the game (Hardcore Mode), no one uses Martyrdom because it's detrimental to your team.

fireball87 wrote:
Quote:
Secondly, you have the "unspoken rules" as you call it where the good people kick those out who kamikaze. I saw this happening a ton of times. Refer back to my other post talking about the 2 reasons why you don't see skilled people doing it.

Unspoken rules are in no way rules. And I've seen people kick players who were better for them for the reason that they are better then them. Does that make being good at the game an unspoken rule?

You'll never see me enforce unspoken rules on myself. If they're spoken as tournament rules then I will follow them because I don't want to be disqualified. If you say the rules before I enter the game I will follow them or leave (I am not a griefer, as much as you may enjoy calling me one for not following unofficial rules). But I will not enforce phony rules on myself.

This also goes back to to what I was saying earlier about the skilled people not suiciding. Is it because they've enforced this "unspoken rule" upon themselves? Or is it because of the other 2 reasons I listed earlier? That is debatable. I think it's because of the latter.

fireball87 wrote:
There is an article about this kindof thinking that I rarely link to due to the fact that the point can be made in a less obnoxious manner. I present for your reading pleasure, an article by a tournament level fighting game player (as in gets into the top ten of street fighter series tournaments). It (somewhat rudely) states something pretty close to my opinion.
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

I've seen that article posted plenty of times. It's old. The article has some points and fails at others. As evident if you click the forum link for that article the 15+ pages of arguing going on..

Interstingly enough (on a somewhat unrelated note), that article was posted in a similar discussion on another website (about bomberman). A clan (Excessive Force - EF) who says they play bomberman blast competitively, went out on other websites looking for challenges in team battles. So after going to their website and reading up on some of their previous clan matches, I read that some of them were implementing and praising each other for "game winning suicides" for a previous clan battle they won. So after putting in my 2 cents, one of their clan members tried to give me that website again. Needless to say I challenged them to 3 vs 1 "clan match" and they got owned.

fireball87 wrote:
--edit--
After doing a bit of searching I found this.
http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/bombermanblast/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-45907448&pid=945463

It claims the penalty for suicide is the same as the penalty for dieing by someone elses bomb, someone want to confirm or deny? That's not a punishment at all. If this is accurate you'd get a score of 0 if you suicide bombed someone wouldn't you? 20 points lost for suicide and 20 points gained for bombing others. I have not bomberman blast, so impossible for me to say for sure.

Depending if it's the suicide that killed you or the suicide that detonated your bomb, that's the difference between having a net score of 0 or a score of -20 (and that's even if your successful killing the person). If the latter, it's "punishment". Again, said scoring reduction was entered for a reason.



Edit: This discussion is also taking place on the bmoworld forums (8 for yes 5 for now so far). I found it interesting that some of the people who said Yes it's acceptable latter used very harsh descriptive words for those using said tactic. When asked on it, they said the topic asked whether or not it was acceptable, not if they like it.

Yes, the topic is kind of ambiguous in the fact that is it saying "Is it acceptable/unacceptable to be allowed/banned from tournaments" or "Is it acceptable or not and do I like it?" I guess I was going for the latter.

It'd be kind of hard to force such thing in a tournament. Or it'd be hard to program in a game because you'd have to make the computer differentiate between who's suiciding/what chains are being activated by the action.
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